If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20
Why do people who aren’t Christians hate us? They look at us and say, “You’re just a bunch of Bible thumpers who are homophobic and you don’t love anybody.”
We’ve brought that on ourselves. I don’t think we’re showing the love of Jesus. Gay people are asking for equal rights under the law, and we’ve got Christians saying “God hates you.” I get so angry because that’s not true! God loves you! Jesus walks with the gay community! I think Jesus says, “I love you just as I love someone who is not gay. I love you as a human being. I just love you.”
I had homophobia. I know what that’s like. But I was wrong to fear like that. God reached deep within my heart and changed me. Now I have gay friends and colleagues. There is no difference between us. Gay people are human beings, and I’m going to love on them just as God told me to love all human beings. God told us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Maybe if more of us did that, Christians wouldn’t be so hated everywhere we go.
Do we love our neighbors as ourselves? A buddy pointed out to me that we’ve built backyard fences, and we no longer build porches. Is it because we don’t want to love our neighbor as ourselves? Here’s what our fences say: We want to be in our own area. Don’t look at me, don’t talk to me, don’t speak to me, leave me alone.
Where are the front porches, where people come over and have lemonade, hang out and talk, enjoy each other, and just be in community? We’ve gone so far away from that.
Churches need to quit going out fifteen miles from a city, buying a big chunk of land, building a humongous church, and then telling people, “Come to us.” What is that? That doesn’t make sense! The Church needs to go to where the people are, and then love on them. We need to be with people wherever they are and wherever they hurt, because that’s where Jesus is.
Jesus said, “You call me a drunk and a glutton because I hang with sinners. I hang in the bars, I hang in the slums, and I eat with people that aren’t your people.” He told the religious leaders, “You guys think you’re so great. I don’t even want to hang out with you. I’d rather hang out with sinners.” Sinners loved Jesus! But do sinners love Christians?
As Christians and as a Church, we have to change. We have got to start loving our neighbors. We have got to start setting the captives free. We have got to start feeding the poor. We have got to start loving. We need to be helping and providing. We should be the leaders in our communities for the simple reason that we just straight-out, flat-out love our neighbors.
Just think: we could be beacons of love.
Great post yet again… I totally agree with you! God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved! Jesus told us we are to love our nabigher as our selves and God helps us in so many ways and he wants us to be kind to others even if they don’t like us or want to hear us talk about God and his son, we are to preach anyways… Apple has a very cool Bible app it’s called Holy Bible, it’s free 😊
right on, Jeremy!
Jeremy Holy Spirit has blessed you and given you a rare insight. I support your vision. How can we make it real and love on all peoples? I’m in!
I hear what you’re saying….and yet, even when we show love, many will still hate us. You can’t equate giving/showing love with getting it back. I didn’t “bring this on myself,” either. Even as a little girl, I felt hatred from people just for going to church. I know you’re talking about the church at large, but like I said, sometimes you can love and still get hate back.
turning the other cheek comes to mind.
as long as what we’re giving is the truest, most compassionate, sincere kind of love we know how to give – we are doing what we can to help spread that message. whether that message gets twisted up because someone has some preconceptions they are building into our reasons for ‘seeming to be loving’ (such as trying to convert or indoctrinate them – ie having an agenda) – is totally in God’s hands. they’ll get the message when they’re ready. And it’s not really hate we get back – its usually fear and misunderstanding that manifests in what looks like hate…
Yes!! We should be known by our love! 🙂
Yes, we are to love others as Christ loves us. However, that does not mean we can condone sinful behavior. We cannot approve of something that God does not approve of. God is love, as you said, and He loves sinners, but He calls for people to change to be like Christ. Jesus told the women caught in adultery that He did not condemn her, but He also told her to “Go, and sin no more.” Loving someone is not the same as approving of their behavior. There are some that feel if we don’t approve of their behavior, we don’t love them.
We should not judge others. Only God can judge.
T. Just trying to speak the truth in love here. Nowhere in the Bible does it prohibit one from judging others. The scripture verse I believe you are quoting says..”judge not lest you be judged.” The correct context of this verse means……do not judge someone for something that you yourself are doing.” It does not imply that we are never to judge. In fact 1 Peter 4:17 says that ‘judgment begins in the house of the Lord.” Peter, Paul, and many of the apostles judged many people in the scriptures, exposing false teachers and false doctrine. Only God can “condemn” someone, but Christians are not only not prohibited from judging others but are commanded from the scriptures to do so. Have a Blessed Easter!
thankfully God instructs us how to judge fully knowing that we, made in His image, stamped with the Law on our hearts, are continuously making judgements. I encourage you to read all of Matthew 7 so that when we judge we do so rightly, according to His Word and not our own understanding.
Would you tell a murderer that they have sinned? Isn’t that judgment upon them?
Following your logic, Keith:
What person is without sin? No one.
Who are we to judge between sins – which do we approve of, and which do we not approve? We are unworthy to make that judgement, for that is for God alone.
And because ALL of us are sinners, and God loves ALL of us, and Jesus came for ALL of us, who are we to say: “no, YOU are not okay because I don’t approve of your sin?” It is not for us – it is not for you – to make that decision. We were commanded to love our neighbor. Period.
Keith, well said! I’m afraid Jeremy, while well meaning, has some of this wrong. While we are to love other people, if we really love them we will (in love) call them out of their sin that is destroying them. Also, he asked why Christians are hated? Jesus said, “If they hated me they will hate you.” The Gospel message is offensive and Christians will be hated no matter how kind they are to other people. Wa Jesus not the most wonderful, kind, loving person who ever walked the earth? Yet he was despised and hated by many. Many Christians and churches want to make Christianity and the church look “cool” to the world. It will never be. And, it seems that Jeremy has also made social justice a major priority. But scripture does not back up this claim. In the “Great Commission” Jesus tells us to “Share the Gospel” and “Make Disciples.” These are the main priorities of a Christian. Again, I’m sure Jeremy is well meaning but some of his theology is not correct.
John 8:7 King James Version (KJV)
“7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
Until you are living without sin you really are not in any place to call out others for their sins. You are also making an assumption that being gay is in some way destroying homosexuals lives. It is not, living in the closet is what destroys their lives and forces them to live a lie.
I will believe that a person is genuinely concerned about the sin of his fellow humans when I see them first succeed at eliminating sin from their own lives. To date, I know of only one such man, and he left us two thousand years ago. I also note that he spent very little time condemning the sinners around him compared to the time he spent loving and teaching them.
It is no ones place to judge others, especially based on some book written 3,500 years ago, based on someone’s appearance or choices. You have no idea what a person has gone through. Judging does not facilitate change or any purpose for that matter, it simply encourages hatred towards others. Quoting words in the bible is not a justification. Acceptance of others beliefs and actions, as long as they are not harmful, is what we should all strive for, as Jeremy said.
Keith, you don’t know what God approves of. You don’t speak for him. Christ died for all of us and only he knows a persons heart. As Christians, we aren’t called to approve or disapprove of anyone else’s behavior. Don’t worry about the speck of dust in a gay person’s eye. Worry about the plank in your own
Mr. Affeldt, you are my hero. You speak from the heart and manage to echo the same thoughts, beliefs and feelings for the many of faith who feel the same way. I am strait and also have many gay friends. What they do in their bedroom is their business, just like what I do is mine. I judge everyone the same; do they teat me with the respect I treat them, thats all I ask of my friends. I don’t have all the answers, but to this question I have all the answers, just like you. Our God is love. What bothers me is that some people who claim to have faith just use it as an excuse to hate, that’s not the God I was raised to know, believe, and love…Mr. Affeldt, you are my hero.
thank you Jeremy. appreciate your loving heart, your actions and your words. as a gay person myself that is used to being constantly judged, thank you for the reminder for me not to judge as well – or assume Christians are only focused on telling me about Hell or how to live or who i should love. your reflections are very brave, refreshing and inspiring as usual. thank you.
Jeremy, I love you as a Giant and a fellow believer, but you speak for yourself. As a Christian, I don’t hate gays and I’ve never met a Christian who says, “God hates you (a gay person).” Neither have I been homophobic. I lived and worked in the city for two years after college graduation, and I saw and witnessed the same things you do. But that doesn’t mean I hate gays, or ever did. I didn’t embrace their lifestyle like they wanted me to, but that doesn’t make me a hater. The Bible says we will be hated because of what we believe, so we haven’t “brought that on ourselves.” It’s just part of the territory of believing in Jesus.
and you speak only for yourself as well. We all do.
May I add here I must disagree with you? We HAVE brought it upon ourselves in this case. Just read the papers. Read the news. Read ANY comments sections of any social issue articles from WND.net, or Brietbart, or anything linked off Drudge. Watch Foxnews. Watch the last “Values Voters” conference on youtube. Listen to the hateful rhetoric of Peter Sprigg or Tony Perkins. Listen to what pastors are saying all over the country and the way they slander and malign and brutally stereotype the gay community as lustful anti-Christ sexbots. You may not, personally, and that’s great.
Have you ever hear the phrase, “I don’t hate you because you’re a Christian. I hate you because you’re a JERK!” ? Newsflash: this pretty much sums up the unbelieving world’s opinion of American Christianity 2015. The shoe fits. And we need to get a new pair – quickly. I’m a believer myself, and evangelizing the gay community is the hardest thing I’ve ever faced. “The World will hate you because it hated Me first.” Let’s look at the cruddyness of our own behaviors, attitudes, and language before we dare to believe these words from our Savior.
You just can ignore the obvious anymore. Look around you. Are you not offended at the numerous attempts to use God as an excuse for hate and bigotry. We now live in a diverse society, and you can;t hide your head in the sand and pretend. Nowadays, the few seem to think they speak for the many, I believe that’s what this blog was about, and yes, it speaks for all of us, God does not hate, case closed
Mark, I am afraid you are in error. If I can encourage you with something, please meditate for a moment(especially during Holy Week) on the wrath that God, the Father poured out on His Son. Now ask yourself why He did that. Was it because He loved our sin or because He hated it?
He hates sin. He loves the sinner. Check it out in the Bible.
Thanks for this, Mr. Affeldt!
I’m a gay Giants fan, and I’m actually part of a Christian community in San Francisco that embraces LGBT people. We have an ongoing campaign on GoFundMe to raise money for charities in the city that help the homeless, including Larkin Street Youth Services. You can find it here: http://www.gofundme.com/pyry28
I agree about being a beacon of love, unless it involves the Dodgers. Then I’m a beacon of hate.
I’m with you there, Lon. 🙂
I see how people react to religious beliefs, and I have to wonder why. Is it wrong that people have them? Maybe, maybe not; a lot of people seem to think it is. Does it really matter though? If it (whether being gay or being religious) really bothers someone that much, maybe THEY are the problem.
I absolutely agree with your urging to be beacons of love for the outcast. I have one question that has been nagging me as a fellow Christian. How do you reconcile your support for homosexuals with what Paul says (as Jesus’ witness) in his letters to the Romans, in which he condemns homosexual behavior. I do love and respect my homosexual friends, but, as a Christian, should not I draw the line at actively supporting their lifestyle? How can I support them and remain a follower of Christ?
I suggest you look to Jesus, who spent much of his ministry among the degenerates of his society, yet spent little time condemning them. In fact, most of his condemnations were for the self-declared righteous ones who spent their time finding fault in others while justifying it with scripture.
I think you missed the part where he told them to leave behind their sinful ways. Check out John 8:1-11.
No, I did not miss that at all. I also missed the part where he went around itemizing people’s sins to them rather than leaving it between them and God.
What service is being provided by Christians who feel they must inform gay people that they are sinning?
You are so right! We are supposed to become like Jesus. If sinners loved Jesus and don’t love us the problem is not Jesus. The problem is so many who are using His name don’t even really know Him. We need to reclaim the real message of Jesus as LOVE from the counterfeits who scream judgement.
Again, Affeldt shows tremendous wisdom, class, and courage. I’m an atheist with a well-accepted lesbian daughter, and I’m sure he and I could still break bread together in a spirit of understanding and acceptance of our differing views. The conversation about our differing worldviews would be respectful, thoughtful, and kind.
That Jesus guy … a hell of a smart and inspiring man.
I am not a Christian, but I am delighted to read your opinion on this. I respect Christian belief, but I cannot abide a philosophy of hate that says God hates some people because they were born gay.
Jeremy, thanks for your post. Concerned about the context though. Jesus did not come to affirm us in our sin but to die so that we may be set free, in Him, from our sin. he gave Himself, bore the Fathers wrath that we deserved to save us, not give us license to do what He is opposed to.
Rob – if I may add something brief here. I completely agree with your position – word for word. But may I challenge your clear assumption, based on your context, that being gay is a sin? Of course we need to be saved from our sin (all of it), and a clear indication of the presence of the Holy Spirit is that the manifestation of our personal sin is diminishing little by little every day, and holiness in increasing measure. As a gay Christian I have seen that radical transformation take place over the last 30 years and a very different testimony than those who look at Romans 1 as applying to gay people, I love God with all my heart, I worship the Creator rather than the created, and I’m not full of all malice, envy, wickedness, etc, and I certainly don’t have a ‘reprobate mind’ in the very biblical sense. Perhaps you may look once again at scripture and really really study it and apply it within its original context (and translation)? The land is full of gay Christians and they worship the same God in the same Spirit and Truth and there is much fruit (excuse the pun) in their lives. But then maybe we can disagree with theological positions outside the gospel yet still call each other brothers? And then maybe not…
Thanks for your reply and it’s kind and tender nature. I love your heart on this and while I clearly understand that Christians can disagree on certain issues(Romans 14), I do not think Scripture offers that the practice of homosexuality is one of those secondary non-essentials. i do not want to give the impression that homosexuality is alone but do want to offer up that verses like 1 Cor 6:9 cast a net over all of us for which many of the sins listed, I do not pretend to be free of without Gods saving grace. So back to the question of “is being gay a sin”? No, but to act on those same sex desires is a sin. Scripture clearly supports this. I believe you know this but I wanted to leave you with 5 general Biblical truths…
5 general Biblical truths
1.there is not a single passage in the OT or NT that supports homosexuality
2.Until the early 20th century, not a single church leader affirmed homosexuality
3.every regulation in the Bible assumes male-female sex
4.every Proverb assumes heterosexuality
5.the 10 commandments assume heterosexuality
-I believe as “Christians”, we approach our faith in 1 of 3 ways. 1-Biblically by emptying ourselves, no matter the consequences, and seeking truth.
2-as a spectator(feel good approach)
3-because we seek affirmation from “god” for our behavior-we can find a church to support and/or affirm us no matter what our behavior may be(Westboro baptist, seeker sensitive churches, NAR and gay affirming churches are amongst these).
Love you brother and hope that the nature of this forum does not suppress my affection for you😄
CJ McRea, I will pray for you and pray that you re-read the Bible. Sometimes we look to the Bible for guidance and make the words endorse what we want. I pray that you will read it with a spirit of seeking ITS guidance.
This is among the most wonderful, enlightening, heart-warming comments on homosexuality that I’ve seen from the professional sports world–and there have been a lot of positive comments on the topic from pro athletes and reporters and pundits over the last few years.
It is also among the bravest comments, up there with Michael Sam’s coming-out in football a year or so ago: you are, in a way, “coming out” as a dedicated, devout Christian who also promotes tolerance of a lifestyle that other dedicated, devout Christians find intolerable. And you’re using your position as an influential sports figure to do so. It’s a really brave stance, and a tremendously admirable one.
It is, in fact, a heroic stance. And I say that in all earnestness, and I use the word “heroic” with the full force of its meaning: when you admit that you were homophobic and that your Christian faith brought you to see the error in that approach, and that you now have gay friends and colleagues, you are allowing hundreds or thousands of your fans to see you in a vulnerable moment, and to show them that it’s okay for them to change. That takes a heroic level of courage, strength, and conviction.
A Christian friend of mine made a similar admission to me many years back, and it was his admission that allowed me to admit my own nearsightedness when it came to bashing Christians and Christianity. In fact, his candor and compassion brought me into the fold. I hope that your message of tolerance, love, and acceptance finds as many ears as are willing to hear it.
You’re a great man, Jeremy Affeldt, and the Giants, the MLB, and pro sports across the country are improved by your involvement. You are, truly, a beacon of love, and it gives me great joy to see you using your position of fame to magnify that light.
Best of luck with your season (but I’ll still have to pull for the Tiggers if we meet you guys in the WS : )
All best & much love,
Thanks Jeremy, I am right there with you, my feelings are equal, I appreciate your words of wisdom.
I think you and bob goff could be great friends. Check out his book, love does, if you haven’t already.
“Why do people who aren’t Christians hate us?” Answer John 15:18-19.
Not because of Family Guy or other entertainment caricatures, very few of whom probably actually exist. I’ve never actually met one, I’ve only read about them or seen them on TV. Happy Maundy Thursday/Good Friday.
Jeremy – I confess I don’t know of you (I’m a diehard Nats fan!) but I do hail from SF so that counts for something I think. I’ve been a born-again believer for 30 years this week. I’m also a gay man who didn’t choose his sexuality any more than you chose yours (regardless of what wacks like Sandy Rios says). I’m not here to debate the theological issue of being gay (though scripture clearly addresses SOME form of homosexual behavior that many ‘conservatives’ use as a blanket referendum on the gay community). I’m here to thank you for someone FINALLY addressing the issue that a big portion of the Body of Christ is not treating the gay community as Christ would. “I love you just as I love someone who is not gay. I love you as a human being. I just love you.” Simple but so meaningful. Something so rare within the Church today. Anyone that doesn’t agree just doesn’t ‘get it’ and may never.
What I also find so maddening is the way the conservative community continues to craft this argument as a “gay” vs. “Christians” thing. Did it ever dawn on anyone that there are gay Christians? Did it ever dawn on anyone that there are gay believers who love and serve Christ? Did it ever dawn on anyone that there are gay people that want to get married because they believe being married in the sight of God will bring Him glory? The ages-old argument that you can’t be ‘gay’ and Christian is nuts and reveals you don’t understand the gospel. And did it also ever dawn on anyone that Jesus did hang out with the ‘sinners’ and he reserved ALL of his ire and outrage on the religious? Can we not see an ironic pattern going on here? Anyone? Bueller?
If Jesus came back today I think many of us would be utterly shocked at what He’d do, who He’d visit, who He’d praise, who He’d castigate. I think He’d most certainly “turn over the tables”…and the tables would belong to the “religious leaders” and their acolytes of the day.
Let’s not lose sight of reality if we truly believe what scripture plainly says – people don’t go to hell because they’re gay. They go to hell because they reject the saving act of Christ’s atonement on the cross. And how are they to know his saving grace if they look at the hypocritical and worthless “love the sinner, hate the sin” mantra of the American Church? Jeremy is correct. Regardless of whether you believe being gay is a sin or not, Jesus has called us to love in action and deed – everyone. Not loving by shunning, oppressing, dehumanizing, or the classic fumble “love by speaking the truth”. WWJD? I think Jeremy’s got a much better handle on that than 90% of the American Church. We’re all taking about a big ‘revival’ that needs to go on in this country. I agree. But that revival won’t come until the Church initiates their own repentance for their hypocrisy, misuse of spiritual authority, and oppression of those they don’t like.
Great post Jeremy, I want to just love people too.
Jeremy, thanks for sharing brother. I’m the guy who sets up the Faith Day events with MLB teams across the country. You shared as part of our event with MercyMe in Cincinnati a few years ago. I have two boys, 13 and 11, who have both fallen in love with baseball. It’s nice to be able to point to role models in the game who are seeking to be cross-bearing disciples of Jesus. Thanks for your example and for being unafraid to share truth. Blessings on your journey, Brent
A Christian baker should no more be forced to bake for a homosexual wedding than a homosexual baker be forced to bake for a normal wedding.
I am not sure what you mean by a normal wedding. Is this a wedding that happens in Las Vegas after a night of drinking and gambling? Or is it the one that results from the reality show “the Bachelor”? Is it an interracial couple? There’s a real problem with someone using their specific religious views. Some Muslims believe in plural marraiges as do some Mormons. Why is there a focus on gay marriages? Shouldn’t bakers refuse to bake cakes equally? Where’s the religious judgement in those examples? Selectively applying principles of faith is far from espousing Gods love.
oh, just stop hating on gay people and I’ll stop hating on you for it. I don’t care what gets you there. Just knock it off.
I think people dislike so called Christians like Franklin Graham, Tony Perkins, Donald Wildmon etc. Personally I think it is kind of silly that basically smart people believe in a God. You don’t need religion or a god for all the things you said here.
It’s amazing to me how few people still don’t understand that being gay is NOT a choice. Any claims of those that have rejected it are either in severe denial or perhaps more likely bisexual & could choose – but sexuality can be so confusing as we grow up, that perhaps they didn’t even realize they were bi and just thought they struggled. But ask any that do identify as gays and lesbian, as opposed to bi, and they will tell you – it was not a choice. Many are okay with this, but some might have chosen to be straight if it was – not because it is viewed as better, but because it would have been easier. And if you look at the statistics, way too many youth are committing suicide because they are being rejected for who they are – why wouldn’t they just choose to be straight? Too many LGBT are ending up out on the streets homeless because they are rejected… why wouldn’t these young teens struggling to be who they are, just choose to be straight? But you bigots don’t want to believe that it could be genetic because you’re afraid that means your kids could be gay, or afraid it means you have to accept that you are wrong to use the Bible to justify your prejudices. Well, guess what, the Bible was used to justify bigotry against interracial marriages too, as well as to have slavery, as well as to justify things like the Holocaust. Meanwhile, no one is casting stones at divorcees or refusing fat people at restaurants due to the sin of gluttony, as you pick & choose to support what makes you comfortable… but discrimination should never be a comfortable state. And none of that takes away from the good that the Bible has in it – the morals and values that can be learned from it – the love that can be gleamed and shared, as Jeremy has done here. But you detractors that insist you must punish the sinners… how can you not even consider that perhaps God created gay people? And if God created gay people, why would he have people born just to be sinners that get condemned? Perhaps there’s a reason why Jesus never mentions homosexuality… and if you study language, there wasn’t even a word for homosexual back during the day so yes, there is a good chance of mis-translation. What is said is against sexual acts, not against people loving each other, or marrying each other. Speaking of religion – Muslims get married. Jews get married. Atheists get married. People in countries all over the world get married. It is NOT a Christian word. Yes, matrimony is a sacrament, and the separation of church & state should help to protect churches from doing anything they don’t want to. But that does not mean you own marriage and the 1000 legal rights that come with it! If you are Christian, then it is right to LOVE. If you are American, then it is right to value EQUALITY. And if you at all feel offended that my words might have inferred you to be an Un-Christian, Un-American, then perhaps you can relate to how awful it is for questioning youth to be told they’ll go to hell or to gays denied rights feeling as if somehow that makes them second class citizens, and if you can realize that we all can feel hurt and all are HUMAN, then perhaps you can find some empathy that allows both your hearts and your minds to open.
“…AND YOU SHALL BE HATED OF ALL NATIONS FOR MY NAME’S SAKE.”
The Lord Jesus wasn’t kidding.
Yes GOD said love your neighbor, he also said for man not to lay with man, he also destroyed a city over gay people SADOM and GAM OAR
He also said not to eat shellfish. Or mix fabrics. Where is the outrage?
Thank you …
Your welcome and have a nice evening
Bill before you go making statements like God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexuality, you really should study about it more. Was it destroyed because of homosexuality, or because of rape and inhospitality? The angels were RAPED by two men, that does not make it a homosexual act or relationship, it just makes it rape. Rape was the sin.
You can love people without supporting their sin against God. Because I am a glutton and addicted to food I was born into this sin and I know what it is like to struggle in this flesh..It is very hurtful ..deeply distressing at times… No, the sin I struggle with is not homosexuality but I have struggled with lying, stealing, sexual sin… you name it… the key word here is struggle.. I never gave into those things because I believed God would deliver me and he did set me free from many of those things.. but not all.. ..I’m STILL at glutton and food addict and have been most of my life.. Will I accept my sin …NO! Do I expect those who love me to accept it? Not if they love me FOR REAL. They know my addiction (my sin) will lead to DEATH, spiritual and natural. Although we are all born into this sinful flesh and we struggle with sin we should not expect people who REALLY love us to accept and support that which clearly leads to death. The person that really loves me will accept me and be honest with me about my sin. I will NOT say that person hates me because they won’t support my sin. The mature Christian will love homosexuals and CAN understand their pain and struggles but does not have to align themselves in support of something that will destroy the homosexual. That is not love. That is cowardice. That is a person seeking the approval of man, the love of “people”. Jesus spoke the truth in love without every yielding to the authority of satan or humanity. He never gave up his power and he NEVER stopped loving. He LOVED until the very end, even in the face of ALL who hated him. Christians can do that too “if we are brave enough to be hated” by those we say we love. As Christians we are called to walk in his shoes and suffer as he suffered. It would be great if we could go around supporting and justifying our own sins and the sins of everybody including homosexuals just so we can all get along but that is not what God’s Word tells us. We must know we can show love to people without supporting their sin. Unfortunately it “looks like” many homosexual activists won’t accept Christian love without having us deny God’s teaching about homosexuality. They want us to accept the plan of satan for their lives. But see, THEY may accept satan’s plans for their lives but it doesn’t mean we have to. If I don’t accept satan’s plan for MY OWN life and I say I love YOU…then I wont accept his plan for your life EITHER. If we just bow down and worship people and please them instead of Christ then all will be well, right? When we stand for Christ, we are standing for the homosexual community whether they know it or not. Christians will suffer hatred Jeremy and will be constantly tempted to bow down to the plan and the plot of satan for ourselves and our loved ones, period. If you truly love homosexuals, you will tell them about Christ’s love and show them his love but you don’t have to deny Christ and his instruction to do it. Be prepared to be rejected by those who understand that you have clearly taken God’s point of view about sexuality over theirs….. But love them anyway! whether they receive it or not. Real love requires telling the truth about sin and where it leads. It requires that you tell them about how to be set free from it through Christ. You don’t have to beat someone over the head with it.. making your position clear once and standing firm on it is enough then go on to loving on your friends homosexual OR heterosexual.
Question: What are you adding to the homosexual’s life by expressing your belief about it even once? What value does that bring? Do you think they are idiots who have no idea that many mainstream Christians believe homosexuality is sin? Do you believe your relationship with God is superior to theirs? Why should you express it and ‘stand firm’?
Are you really doing it for them, or are you doing it for yourself? I can guarantee you it does nothing positive or spiritual for them, although it does tell them a lot about you, and not in the way you may think.
There is no question that God and Jesus loves gays. We are assured that he loves all of us. The issue I have is when people confuse what is biblical. Yes, if Jesus were walking the Earth right now He would love the gays. However, He would not protest for their right to marry. He would not carry their banner in the gay “rights” parade, and He would not defend the lifestyle. He was very clear when faced with those who committed sexual sin: I love you, but sin no more! There should be no confusion about how He would handle homosexuality. He would handle it with love, compassion, and councel. He would not handle it with acceptance.
You make a lot of assumptions here. In the New Testament, Jesus spent far more time protesting the righteous than he did the sinners. Furthermore, he clearly believed in justice. Whether or not he would have believed in homosexuality as a sin, if he walked among us now the concept of social justice under secular law seems likely to have appealed to him.
Jeremy you are watering down the word of God and that’s wrong no one hates Gays and can call them a believer yes your right, BUT the Bible clearly doesn’t support gays in anyway. Our country is under attack and Marriage is losing and the Govt is saying its ok to be GAY and we will enforce it make people say its ok….threats of pastors losing tax exempt if they don’t marry 2 same genders and businesses being also put into the positon
The government’s job is not to enforce your personal religious definition of marriage. The government is not a religious institution or authority. Your church is free to decide who to marry and who not to marry. The government should not be in that position, provided those involved are in a state of informed consent and there is not harm or potential harm to others by their actions.
I am not aware of any pastors being threatened to lose tax exempt status. As there is no federal recognition of homosexual marriage at this time, and since tax exempt status is a federal issue, I cannot see the situation you are discussing occurring anytime soon. Can you link me to an actual example?
Sir, regardless of its source, our Lord knew the strong emotion of hate though he did not cower. Having walked away, yes delivered, from same-sex attraction I still wonder why Father would allow same sex ‘relations’ to be so deadly. Thirty years have passed and heterosexual infection dwindles yet Atlanta states men who have sex with men STILL yield high counts.’God designed me as homosexual so I’ll endure the risky behavior because emotions compel.’ Will a Pharmacist tell us this ‘community’ can handle that risk? How can a loving God allow ‘natural love’ to be so expensive that agonizing death results? Oh, I know you can see that a man’s body ‘naturally’ compliments a woman’s and the other medically creates such tension! There is another way!
Also – being gay is NOT a choice! Science is finally finding evidence for it. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26572-largest-study-of-gay-brothers-homes-in-on-gay-genes.html?hc_location=ufi#.VSU7BhqXfkJ
Causation does not imply justification. Gods Word says we were all born with a heart of pride. Jeremy Affeldt , for whatever reason, has compromised the Word of God in order to please man. And for those that choose to depart from God and His truth, whatever that looks like(twisting Scripture or denying it altogether), suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, they will applaud Jeremy Affeldt. After all, we are people and people love and desire to be loved, no matter our orientation. The question everyone of us has to ask ourselves is who are we going to follow?? Are we going to follow man(Jeremy Affeldt, government, etc) or do we follow God? “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” We must be compassionate and we must be honest, sharing life with each other, in truth. Love you all. In Christ
Comparing pride to homosexuality is pretty ridiculous. Controlling pride is easy. Denying my essential nature as a straight male, and the attractions that brings is virtually impossible, and I have no idea why I should expect a homosexual to be able to control it any better than I have been able to in my life.
Finding a partner, starting a family, these are fundamental parts of being born human. I doubt God randomly seeded some people to have to deny those urges their entire lives while granting the other 90-95% of us no such obstacle.
Homosexuality is natural, and as such is as much a gift from God as heterosexuality is.
I am comparing sin to pride. Whether or not the sin is born from a pride of life, pride of lust or pride of self, all have pride as its root. If overcoming pride is easy then why do we need the Cross? the whole of your response is evidence of human nature and why we need the Cross. It is human nature to treat sin lightly, make excuses, blame somebody else or minimize the harm done. This leads us to deny a ruler and judge and identify with a savior of our own making who responds without discrimination when we cry out for help, healing, money, boyfriend, success, etc. the world will falsely provide and affirm these things. Thank God that the Lord Jesus will address our deepest needs, SIN AND DEATH. Jesus is God, Savior, Ruler and Judge. His Word is about Him, not us(no matter how much we love ourselves). And His Gospel is about us dying to self not self fulfillment. Please get over yourself. God did not push his chips in on you. he pushed Him in on His Son, then He paid the bill in full. Repentance, confession, freedom, love!!
Thanks for the sermon I guess, however I don’t see how this response has anything to do with the blog post, or the fact that being homosexual is not a choice. Pride really has nothing to do with homosexuals. Can you clarify?
Pride=selfish ambition. Outside of the fall of man(Gen.3), the cause is irrelevant. At the risk of giving another sermon whereby “self” is not on the throne, I’ll stop there.
I am so very thankful to God that their are other Christian’s like Jeremy who are allowing the Holy Spirit to change their hearts and minds by the power of His love and grace. It is so very easy to sit back and judge others out of ignorance or fear while using God and Bible verses to justify our position.
I believe that the reason a lot of people hate Christians is because of our hypocrisy and self-righteous attitude’s. I believe that is why Jesus Christ didn’t hangout with the religious leaders of his day, but the common people loved him. I believe that it is possible to love someone out of sin, but I don’t think you can judge someone out of sin. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. I believe that if we Christians would learn what means
to love as God loves, then we would see the greater works than these shall ye do because I go to my Father, that Jesus talked about. Love more and judge less each and every day for the rest of your life and you will see people as God sees them,…just saying.
As a result of this blog, God has spoken to my heart. As I have supported and shown love to my brothers and sisters in Christ over the last week or so, I will also show support to the lost LGBT youth. My message or I should say Jesus’ message to them is this:
“I love you. You are valuable. I will not abandon you or leave you hurting and alone”
I will let him use me as a vessel . For this reason I am donating to the Pizza4equality campaign on gofundme designed to support homeless youth. I hope the body of Christ will follow suit and support these young people. They do not have to come to church to receive our love. We, The Church, can go to them. We can meet them where they are and we can show up strong on their behalf. I will donate and make the simple comment #FromaChristian- I love you…and I hope other Christians will follow suit. I love you all. Thank you Jeremy for starting this blog.
Although I’ve seen actress Lisa Whelchel (formerly of “The Facts Of Life) quote a similar sentiment to yours (http://www.shewired.com/entertainment/2015/02/11/watch-facts-life-star-lisa-whelchel-christians-have-earned-their-antigay-st), I applaud you for sharing your journey.
The two commandments Jesus gave were to love God and to love your neighbor as you would love yourself. Two commandments to simply love. That’s powerful stuff, even for someone who has largely walked away from the faith because of the perversions of some so-called believers.
I’d be curious to find out a little more about how you set on this path of evolving. Was there a particular incident that made you reconsider your homophobia? Or was it a gradual process not fueled by any one thing.
In short, thank you for writing this.
I watched you pitch tonight (sorry my Rockies ruined your opening day) and then found your blog while browsing! What a coincidence and how I admire you as athlete and follower of Jesus. Have a great season!
Jeremy, I read your article above, and I cannot agree with everything you say. You seem to want to gloss over and excuse the behavior of “gay” people because you seem to think that’s what “loving” them in the Biblical sense means. But the Bible makes it quite clear that that kind of sexual and moral behavior is abhorrent to God, and it destroys people. Even secular medical science tells us that. You aren’t doing your “gay” friends any favor by ignoring their behavior and lifestyle, and treating them like they’re anyone else. You’re just enabling them to destroy themselves, both physically and spiritually — all the while patting yourself on the back for being “loving” toward them. I don’t think that’s what Jesus meant by “loving your neighbor”. Helping your neighbor to feel good about himself while watching him walk off a cliff isn’t “loving” him. It’s actually being lazy and uncaring. Sometimes loving people means doing what’s RIGHT for them, even if they don’t happen to like it. But it takes true commitment to the welfare of other people to do that. And work. And many people just aren’t up to that — so they take the easy way out and then congratulate themselves with how “loving” they are. But they’re just kidding themselves. Jesus is not impressed with that kind of shallow “love”. We have to stop living by the shallow standards of the “hippies” of the late 1960s (and the left-wing liberals of today), and really start coming to grips with what the Bible is actually trying to tell us about this kind of stuff.
I often see this argument but it really does not hold much water. Let me take it in order..
– Jeremy is in no way glossing over or excusing behavior for anyone. He is declining, however, to be the judge of others who’s relationship with God he cannot personally know. Nor can you.
– The Bible makes many kinds of behaviors clear as being abhorrent. Consuming shellfish. Mixing fabrics. Declining to marry a woman you raped. There is little to no evidence that those things are any less ‘abhorrent’ than homosexuality. A Christian who chooses to elevate one ‘sin’ above the others is taking the easy way out.
– Secular medical science tells us no such thing. Citations needed if you want to claim it does. Secular medical science has found likely genetic basis for homosexuality, and virtually every mammal species appears to engage in it.
– Yes, he is doing his gay friends a favor by not preaching. They live in a culture where they have been preached at their whole life by people like you. They are well aware of your opinion and they have not changed. Jeremy has chosen to live by example, not by beating someone over the head with his beliefs. His tactics are far more likely to be effective than yours, even if ‘conversion’ is the goal (which it is not).
– Why do you believe you know what’s right for another? Why do you believe you can speak for Jesus?
– What’s with the random dig at hippies and liberals? I am pretty certain Jesus was not much of a right winger, at least based on having read the New Testament and looking what what the left and right wings espouse….
As for your second comment, your hermeneutic is so off that I am going to just say this.., your theology is in error. In looking back at your comments from April, you made similar elementary, albeit grave errors. Please understand the context, covenant and audience intended when you read Gods Word. Despite what you may think, God didn’t provide His Word to just cherry pick from for our own delight. We have a responsibility and obligation to discern His Word rightly. So much so, that He indwells those of us who are His, with His Holy Spirit. Praise God!
As for your 3rd point, I applaud that Jeremy has homosexuals in his inner circle. He absolutely should love on them and not elevate their sins above his own. However, as Kirk mentioned, affirming behavior that God is opposed to is not love. I’m not sure what you mean by “preachy” because that is a subjective term often used in a negative sense. You seem to use it haphazardly with respect to your judgement of Kirk. Yea, you are judging him; how about that? To use your own words, how can you judge Kirk if you don’t know his personal relationship with God? I understand it’s convenient to judge him as preachy but I didn’t see it that way. In fact Kirk makes mention of the fact that he really “works” on relationships with others. I know, I know, you don’t care.., you just want affirmation and validation. Again, as followers of Christ, we can’t affirm that which God opposes, in ourselves or others. And thank God that He provides us His Word so that we may know how to deal with those behaviors first in self and then in others.
Reflex, allow me to take your points in order. First point, I think it’s fair to assume that Jeremy is “glossing” over the sexual behavior of homosexuals. I can’t point to one single area where he may label it as a sin. In fact, I believe it’s safe to assume he is justifying the behavior because his only finger pointing(JUDGING) is done at Christians and Christian churches. I’ll agree to disagree with you on that point but to say that Jeremy is “declining” to judge others is off the mark. While Jeremy mixes in obvious truths such as Jesus loving homosexuals, and Christians are to love them as well, he avoids defining what Biblical love looks like, he refuses to separate the behavior from the person and instead starts judging. In doing so, Jeremy attempts to convince his audience that the rift between homosexuals and the Christian community lies firmly on the shoulders of Christians. While Christians have fallen short and we need to get better, it strikes me as very convenient of Jeremy to avoid addressing the other side. With the one big omission, being the CONSCIENCE.
As for the secular science comment, you ask Kirk to support his claims and then you proceed to make a few claims of your own…, all without support. Was that just by accident? Or were you subscribing to Jeremy’s code of convenience? At this point, I’m not sure your reluctance to “take up your cross” is volitional or intellectual or both. My hope and prayer is that you repent and seek His face no matter how uncomfortable it gets. That is the daily wrestle of the Christian, brother. Which brings me to the last point.., I’m not sure of Kirks reasoning for bringing up liberals and hippies. I can’t speak for him and my hope is that he responds to you. However, let me address my struggle with the “liberal” church briefly. and yes I’m going to judge.., the liberal church has allowed the “world” to affect the church and not vice versa. Emotion and feelings rule the day and the church has gone wonky. Something tells me that you may go to one of these churches. If I am wrong, please tell me but your comment about Jesus in the NT screams to me that you subscribe to a social gospel. This idea that Jesus came only to accept all, judge none and that the gospel was one of social justice. We can do whatever we feel like because Jesus seemingly doesn’t care, He loves us no matter what. Yes, He loves us no matter what but it is in spite of our behaviors not because of them. And He died not so we can live separately from Him, continuing to defile our bodies but so that we would be pure. I’d ask you again to reread the Sermon on the Mount, the Bread of Life discourse, the Olivet Discourse, or the Upper Room Discourse because proclaiming social justice was not Jesus mission. Jesus’ discourses focus on something else. The Gospels focus on something else. Go read the epistles. They focus on something else. That is that they all focus NOT on the works of Christians but rather on the work of Christ!! It is not about you or me or Kirk or Jeremy, it’s about Jesus! And brother thank God for that because there is joy and rest in Him. When it’s about us, that only brings anger, hate and resentment.., whether one calls himself a Christian or not.
Addressing these in point by point manner since its so many posts to cover, from the top –
– I am fine with you disagreeing with my theology. I am aware of many Christians who state this as their excuse for not following the Bible, but there are some who realize the error of their ways. The Egyptian Coptic Christians. Seventh-Day Adventists. A few others. Some recognize that if they are going to claim the book is inerrant and inspired that they are not permitted to pick and choose which parts. I am aware of the intellectual gymnastics modern churches perform to justify their logic for ignoring the Law as granted by God. I just disagree, I believe you are either all in, or you recognize that parts of the Bible are cultural rather than literal laws of God. We can agree to disagree however, but from my perspective calling out one sin while ignoring all the others is hypocritical.
– On the third point, I will say this: How would you feel if your neighbor came over to enjoy the game and during the conversation said the following: “Hey Rob, so I noticed your gaze on Fred’s new Lexus, I don’t really want to preach but as your neighbor and a fellow Christian I am concerned about your soul. You know what the Lord says about coveting that which is your neighbors. Some of the guys also were a bit concerned about your path to heaven given your denial about your son hitting that baseball through the window on Shelia’s garage, maybe you aren’t aware but bearing false witness is a sin. Oh, and as long as we are clearing the air, that lady you keep glancing at when she jobs by is George’s wife, and you know what the Bible says about those kinds of thoughts…”
Sure, I mean the first time you’d kind of laugh it off, or even be more careful. But when he comes out next week for the next game and brings it up again, and the week after that, and maybe shares it with your congregation so that they can all pray for your soul and intercede so you know whats right, what then? I mean its all in love. Sure you’ve heard it before. Sure they don’t really understand whats going through your mind or your personal relationship with God. But hey, they will keep telling you what you already know because that is what they do in love, right? I mean, you said that no sin should be elevated above the others, and that Christians should not silently affirm sin in others…
Or, perhaps, you are aware of your sins, their severity, have perhaps spoken to your pastor about them, and have your own relationship with God that other Christians you interact with socially are not privvy to the details of.
– You accused me of judging Kirk. I’m not certain which sentence I typed gave you that impression, however I will point out that any judgement I hold of him is based on his public statements towards his fellow man, and not a judgement of his heart, mind, motives or relationship with God. I cannot claim to know his hear or mind, just as he cannot know the heart or mind of others, including the homosexuals he passes judgement on.
– On Jeremy addressing the other side, you are missing Jeremy’s point. The ‘other side’ has been addressed, loudly, by conservative Christians for centuries. There is no doubt of their point of view. What is to be gained by Jeremy by repeating it yet again? How will that in any way bring homosexuals closer to God or away from their supposed sin? At what point will they simply ignore you rather than listen to you rant about something they cannot change? I know that if someone in my circle of friends can do nothing but speak to me of what they feel are my sins, that is a person I am soon not socializing with.
And finally, I want to respond to your statement about churches. You condemn what you see as liberal churches for being about feelings, emotions and acceptance. I have not experienced a church like this, it sounds like a caricature to me, honestly. However I have experienced churches that allow the world to affect thier teaching and message. I have seen a massive change in my lifetime in the focus of churches in general, a focus on money and power(mega-churches). A focus on politics and influencing the political system(Christian Coalition). A focus on capitalism as the only ‘godly’ system(Prosperity Gospel). A run of preachers trying to win public office rather than tending to thier flock(Huckabee). A series of fake historians attempting to rewrite our nation’s history into a theocratic one, and then giving speeches in front of mega-congregations espousing this false history(David Barton). In short, I have seen it become widely accept that anything is acceptable so long as it converts more Christians and raises more money for the cause. I watched the fall of Mars Hill Church here in Seattle after seeing it shatter my brother’s family with its male-centric, anti-homosexual, misogynist “bros before hoes” culture and teaching.
These days its become part of the standard tactics to Lie for Jesus. Truth does not matter. Ethics and morals do not matter. If a lie gets someone in, its worth it. Even better if you can make some money for the cause off of them.
Whats more amazing to me is that after seeing the massive perversion of faith and the message of Christ that Jesus still loves us at all. Modern Christiantiy has become everything that he stood against. Remember when you stand around pointing fingers at homosexuals and other sinners that you are the modern Pharisee.
Reflex, I couldn’t agree with you more on the points you speak of in terms of where churches have gone wonky. The prosperity gospel speaks to a lot of what I was addressing is wrong with the church. They are affirming what God is opposed to. They are caving to our fallen nature just as the liberal church and making the gospel a gospel about self and not about Jesus. We will both agree that this makes money and fills seats because at the end of the day, people just want to be validated where we are at. And when our consciences are screaming at us, we seek and need that affirmation no matter the cost. False teachers are preying on this need rather than putting the focus on our fallen condition and thus, our need for the person and works of Jesus Christ. This shows up in the form of prosperity preaching, preaching a social gospel and affirming any sex outside of one man and one woman, abortion, racism, sex changes and the like. Anyhow, as for your other points, your long story about being held accountable, let me just say that I am thankful to God for Godly men who I can be transparent with and hold me accountable. I thank God for the gift of small groups because by nature, we tend to drift from truth and there is strength in Godly men and women who daily pray for less of self and more of God. Bottom line is we are either growing towards God or away from God. One is subject to grace through his humility and one is subject to the law because of his pride. Again, thank God I have men in my life who help me step up and not be spiritually apathetic;to speak out and be courageous about sharing what is true, fearing God and not men; to stand strong in the face of temptation, persecution and conflict rather than affirming it and acting on it; to stay humble by encouraging one another to first pull the “log” out of our own eyes and helping to be vigilant against pride; And finally to Serve the King, seeking first His righteousness, His glory, studying Scripture and worshipping God!! So despite how unappealing you may want to make men of God sound with your silly illustration, there is comfort, transparency, accountability and love in small groups. Proverbs 18:24 comes to mind. Lastly, to accuse Kirk, myself and others as doing nothing more than pointing sin out all day, while it fits your narrative, is again a judgement. Interesting how you keep falling into the trap that you like to accuse others of. I don’t know Kirk but I am guessing there is a lot more to Kirk than you “point your finger” to. I am guessing Kirk is humble, fears God and has a Holy ambition to do his best with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God and Godly men and women(also indwelt withe Holy Spirit), to live up to Gods transcendent moral expectations because after all we are made in His image. That means growing in a love for God and others. That doesn’t mean buying into the earthly nonsense that sinful behavior like homosexuality(or lying, gossip, etc) can’t be changed. To say or believe that is not to know the Author and Finisher of our faith. And to say or believe that sex isn’t sacred, life isn’t sacred, race isn’t sacred, gender isn’t sacred, is not to be a child of God. So please do all of us a favor and don’t equate ceremonial and dietary laws to those that God holds sacred. At the very least, may I encourage you to pray for humility and discernment in rightly understanding context, messaging and application when studying Gods Word. I can assure you I’ll do the same because ultimately, we should be in agreement as brothers in Christ, that we should have a patient continuance in doing good, seeking Him and not self; obeying the truth and not unrighteousness; growing in a faithfulness to please God!
Reflex, I just wanted to end with this.. I love you brother and have enjoyed communicating with you. I bid you a good night and give you the final word. Be blessed brother.
I am a resident of the Bay Area, a Giants Fan and Christian. I think Jeremy has missed the point, I don’t think Christians at all are saying they hate gay people. Most of this was really not an issue until gay marriage came about. It’s the gay community who has said that Christians hate them and this is mostly because Christians do not support gay marriage. Furthermore the gay community and the left have start bashing Christianity because they know according to the Bible, homosexuality is wrong. They have done all they can to try to marginalize Christians. They have been doing this well before gay marriage because they knew in order for gay marriage to become a reality, they have to push Christianity aside. Furthermore, Jeremy said he was once homophobic and was a afraid to leave his hotel when his team was player the Giants and A’s (before he was a Giants). That is extremely strange, most especially since Jeremy grew up at one point of his life in Modesto where is father took him to Giants and A’s games. Jeremy has also had a bad experience in his life when he was almost kidnapped in Thailand at a very young age. He has taken up the cause of human trafficking as a result and good for him. Pedophilia is an awful thing, but it should also be noted that gay pedophilia when statistics were taken (now it’s not politically correct to take such stats) was at least ten fold of have straight pedophilia. Sure Jesus loves everyone, but the big question is, does he love the act? Do people have to accept gay marriage and stand up for principal or do they listen to Jeremy and said to not discriminate? Do we accept Pedophilia or do we say it’s wrong? If anything goes, then society goes in a decline. Where do we draw the line? While I have no problem if Jeremy was fighting for hate crimes against gays, that makes total sense. But to take it one step further and promote the lifestyle is not a good thing.
Unfortunately your very post expresses the hate towards homosexuals that they are constantly confronted with by various Christians and Christian organizations. For example, in your post you claim that they have high rates of pedophilia, when in truth no peer reviewed credible study has demonstrated any such thing. You repeatedly conflate homosexuality, a legal consenting, harmless activity with pedophilia, an illegal, non-consenting, incredibly harmful activity. This is a malicious and direct attack on someone for no reason other than the fact that they are homosexual.
Throughout history we have often faced this type of mistreatment of minority or oppressed groups. Blacks were seen as uneducated savages, meanwhile our system was designed to lock them out of education at all levels, and they were blamed for crimes with little to no evidence, thus the majority’s attacks on them were a self-fulfilling prophecy. Here you have done the same thing, looking at only the ‘evidence’ that you feel proves your point, but ignoring the larger body of evidence that denies it, such as the fact that the vast majority of pedophilia occurs in a heterosexual fashion, most often between family members. I do not see you decrying the nuclear family or heterosexuality on these grounds, however.
You also miss the larger point. Homosexuals are very aware of what conservative Christianity feels about them. Continuing to remind them, over and over, is abusive. They do not face attacks in this country from any other significant group, there are no secular humanists against homosexuality here. Virtually every hate crime against homosexuals has been committed by a Christian, often citing their faith as a justification. It is perfectly legitimate for homosexuals to view Christians as a group of being full of hated for them, after all it often costs them their lives.
And finally, nothing Jeremy has said promotes a ‘gay lifestyle’. Just as he does not promote a ‘straight lifestyle’ or any other lifestyle simply by talking about it. What he is doing here is pointing out that Christians are not following the example set by Jesus, who walked with tax collectors and prostitutes and said not a word of judgment against them. He spent his time speaking against the so-called spiritual leaders of the time. As a fellow Christian, I also find it odd that Christians spend so much time worrying about homosexuals and Muslims, yet completely ignore how corrupt our own faith has become. What is the more serious issue, the idea that homosexuals want to marry and build the same stable family unit that we uphold as the gold standard, or the idea that Mars Hill megachurch pastor lied to his congregation, abused his members and likely defrauded his church’s finances? Or that Joel Osteen banks $600k on a typical saturday/sunday service and preaches that being rich is godly? Or that Gospel for Asia is ‘misplacing’ $40-50m of donor money per year and refuses to answer to donors asking questions?
But no, its far easier to ignore the corruption within our own faith and go accuse ‘the gays’ of bringing down our culture than it is to clean up our own act and make certain our leaders are following their own message, isn’t it?
To use the word “hate” is to manipulate the truth and to try to shut down the debate on the facts. Did you not read my statement “I have no problem if Jeremy was fighting for hate crimes against gays, that makes total sense.” So how can I possibly be expressing “hate” when I am all for punishing those who commit crimes against gays not only for the crime itself, but for the hate crime? Rather than jump up and get excited, please read what one says and use some of your brain cells. As for high rates of pedophilia in the gay community, unfortunately one needs to look no further than the Catholic Church and clearly see that the those targeted by some priests where almost all boys. Furthermore, there is an organization called Man Boy Love Association (MANBLA) that is fighting to lower the age of consent so that they can legally practice their perverted sexual behavior. Let me ask you, is there any kind of organization for straight men that wants to push to have sex with young girls, let alone trying to lower the age of consent??? Also what has the gay community done about MANBLA? Nothing! I truly believe it’s because they approve of this organization. The key is to know the facts and to use words like “hate” just diminished your credibility. I challenge you to address the issues I bring up, but I understand addressing the true facts may pose a problem for you.
It is hateful to continue to compare a legal, consensual non-harmful activity, such as homosexuality, to a illegal, non-consensual harmful activity such as pedophilia. If aspects of your life were compared to pedophilia I am certain you would not appreciate it, yet you freely throw the accusation at homosexuals.
Citation needed. There are many church scandals, including among protestant churches, and there is no evidence that more of them are against boys than girls. Furthermore, there is no evidence that the overall rate of pedophilia is higher among homosexuals than heterosexuals.
I have never met a homosexual who promotes NAMBLA (thats the acronym you are looking for). Furthermore, pedophilia is not homosexuality, regardless of your attempts to conflate the two. Your point about an organization trying to lower the age of consent is silly, after all straight men who are pedophiles simply engage in sex with underage girls, the overwhelming majority of pedophiles are heterosexual. Are you going to hold heterosexuals to the same standard you are attempting to hold homosexuals?
What do you expect the ‘gay community’ to do about NAMBLA? You do realize that the first amendment protects the right of anyone to promote any despicable thing they wish, right? Should I ask you when you will ‘do something’ about the Christian Identity movement which was the driving force behind the theology of Timothy McVeigh and his co-conspirators? Or how about the Christians who back organizations that either explicitly or tacitly encourage the murder of legal abortion providers? When is the last time I saw that Christian community doing anything about such groups? Should I brand all Christians (myself included apparently) as potential murderers and supporters of murder for not ‘doing something’ about these radical elements?
So far you haven’t brought much in the way of facts to the table, just a bunch of assertions. Provide a peer reviewed generally accepted study demonstrating that pedophilia is rampant in the homosexual community. Until you do that you are simply asserting hateful slander of the type that was until recent years commonly brought against other minority communities.
Here is some data published on Wikipedia about the Catholic Church Sex Abuse Travesty:
The report stated there were approximately 10,667 reported victims (younger than 18 years) of clergy sexual abuse between 1950 and 2002:
Around 81% of these victims were male.
This is based on the John Jay report:
I know Jeremy is has some important games ahead of his as the Giants are on their final stretch of the season trying to make the playoffs, however I hope he looks at all sides of this issue, most especially since he is putting up a fight against this kind of trash across the globe and good for him. One note on these stats, 81% were boys, however the gay population is more than 3% of the population, If one does the numbers, this is over 30 fold rate for the straight population, its truly sick.
The scandal you mention is a single data point, it does not override the fact that the overwhelming majority of child sex abuse is heterosexual in nature, nor does it in any way imply that homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. I could take any of the dozens of sex scandals that heterosexual pedophile men commit against girls and make the same point you are making. The point would still be invalid because one situation does not extrapolate to a group at large.
Jay, I agree with you strongly that the sex abuse perpetrated within the Roman Catholic Church was a travesty. It was an awful tragedy for every single victim. But what does it have to do with giving Christian love to gay men and women? I don’t get why you are viewing gay people as interchangeable with pedophiles and their enablers.
This issue is not the Catholic Church (with the exception of the leadership dropping the ball), the issue is homosexuality and many who are gay do not know their limits. It kind of like a businessman being cold and calculating in the way he or she makes money and many of those in business do have this attitude, however we deal with it as a society. As far as gay acts and the deviations that may come with it, we are told that this needs to be swept under the rug. Statistics can no longer be published because any statistics that goes against the gay lifestyle is put under the fire, that is how much gay people want to defend their lifestyle and one thing leads to another, eventually there will be no boundaries. In addition to a high rate of pedophilia, kids who have grown up in gay households have spoken up against the practice of raising kids. However the gay lifestyle has been put way ahead of the interest of kids.
Greetings. Jay, your commentary with reflex has brought me into a space whereby the Holy Spirit has reaffirmed in me a greater purpose and intentionality to esteem Gods Word as living and active. That His Word is “the no spin zone” yesterday, today, tomorrow and for all of eternity. Despite reflex’s(or any of our) desire to spin the Bible, It is “unspinnable”. So, lovingly may I encourage you and myself to be mindful that there is a natural pull on all of us to think of ourselves as morally superior because we might not struggle with a specific sin. And instead recognize in reflex’s refusal to submit to the authority of God and His Word, with respect to homosexuality, that we may also struggle in areas whereby we fail to submit to God fully. It may not be in homosexuality but it may be in pornography, self righteousness, parenting, gossip, pride…, etc. In this space of humility, more specifically, denying ourselves and taking up our cross and following Jesus, my hope and prayer is that God lovingly draws us back to Him and His Word, calling us into a love for Him and others. in doing so I believe we will emphasize those things that are “earthly” less, such as the studies you cite which are easily spun and extrapolated to fit any narrative, and focus on Gods kingdom more. In love and humility, Rob
I want to make a couple of points in reply, Rob –
– I am not homosexual myself, thus I have nothing to ‘submit’ over on that account. However even if I were, I would not agree with your definition of sin on that account.
– My issue with Jay is not really his opposition to homosexuality, while I disagree with him on the topic, my main issue is his willingness to lie to accomplish his goals. It is certainly true that there are homosexual pedophiles, and that some child sex abuse scandals have been homosexual in nature, however there is no evidence that those cases are more common than heterosexual sex abuse scandals, even when one adjusts for the level of homosexuals in the population. The idea that same-sex attraction automatically leads to criminal desires is unsupported by evidence, and hateful to spread, and it contributes to a culture of dehumanizing those we oppose much as racism, classism and sexism have in the past (and present). Once people are willing to stoop to such dehumanization, atrocities begin to become normalized. This is why homosexuals are frequently attacked and killed simply due to their sexuality, and a segment of the population defends those who do it.
I would have a lot more respect for someone who could make their case based on facts. I may agree to disagree with them, but I would still respect their position. Once someone resorts to blatant and unsupported smears though, they are in the same group as racists, sexists and misogynists.
Reflex, would love having a cup of coffee with you but we must settle for this forum. Despite the difficulties with this avenue of communication, I am thankful for it bringing people together. May I address your 2 points, starting with the second.., I agree with you. My only hesitation is that you seem to always emphasize how “you” feel and not what God says. That seems to be present in both points you make and in all your posts. And again, I recognize that it may be just a misunderstanding on my part due to the limitations of this avenue of communication. If so, forgive me. If I am right and your primary concern is more about how you feel or think as opposed to what God says, then I don’t apologize because brother, you are in error and you may not be a Christian at all. In any case, I am concerned for you. We can hate people into hell but we can also “love” people into hell by affirming that which God opposes. That’s not really love at all. It’s valuing “doing” over “being”. Or rather “self” over “God”. I ask that you pray for me that I don’t fall into this earthly temptation. I will do the same for you. In Christ, Rob
Oh, haha! There’s a lot of muddied thinking here, Jay! It would take time to sort the disinformation from the truth, and I’m not sure it would get through. I will tell you one thing I’ve learned, though: MEN don’t know their limits. This is especially true of straight men. That’s why most of the Bible’s laws are designed to keep you guys in check. But obviously, even men who think they are getting it right could do a whole lot better. 😉
“Men don’t know their limits” I think many do, but you do have a point, many also do not. Is this a good thing? Of course not, I am not here to rip the gay community, if two men choose to live together fine, but to accommodate everyone wish on their unique lifestyle, weather it be straight or gay related is not a good trend for society.
Nobody is being forced to accommodate them beyond anyone else they are forced to accommodate in day to day life. There is no special ask there.